It’s the summer holidays, so while trying to avoid the rain and ignore demands to entertain children, I’ve been watching West Wing repeats. Watching the same show again often throws up stuff to think about. This time, probably because it’s between the Golden Jubilee celebrations and the London Olympics, was the difference between how patriotism is seen in the USA and the UK.
In the USA, patriotism seems embedded in the national psyche. Most of my US friends describe themselves as American and THEN tell you which state or city they’re from. Here, friends tend to introduce themselves as Scots, Welsh, English, Irish or Northern Irish. Only occasionally do they call themselves British, whereas when I worked in Paris about twenty years ago we all described ourselves as British even though we hailed from across the UK.
So, has devolution affected how we view ourselves? Instead of a federalism like America in which citizens see themselves as constituent parts of a single nation with one flag and a strong feeling of national identity and pride, has devolution changed us into separate nations with no common identity?
America has a clear sense of itself in an uncertain and hostile world and this forms part of its immigration strategy, including learning to speak English and learning the Pledge of Allegiance. Post-imperial United Kingdom has lost that certainty and sense of self and I think devolution has devalued national patriotism further. Even the English are seeking a more regional identity now as government has become so London-centric.
The recent surge of support for British troops is to be welcomed, but is a new development. The Jubilee celebrations were so widespread that perhaps patriotism is not dying but government needs to ensure that all UK citizens see themselves as part of something bigger and worthwhile. If the drift continues, how long before the UK does truly fracture?
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Dan Langfen
July 24, 2012 at 4:10 pm (UTC 0) Link to this comment
The English are not seeking a more regional identity – the English are seeking recognition, from the British elite, of their English identity, something that Westminster and the Unionist State TV (aka BBC) goes to great lengths to suppress. You have obviously been taken in by the establishment propaganda.
lionel
July 24, 2012 at 5:11 pm (UTC 0) Link to this comment
“has devolution changed us into separate nations with no common identity?”
England perhaps yes, but Wales and Scotland always had their own identities
” You have obviously been taken in by the establishment propaganda.”
hear hear! the rampant shoving down our throats of false manufactured Britishness is sickening, from retail businesses, to the media, soap operas and beyond. It’s like some sort of Soviet-style enforcement of a sad dying identity that not many wanted in the first place reallysynonymous really.
Be proud of England!
Old Albion
July 24, 2012 at 5:27 pm (UTC 0) Link to this comment
Do bears shit in the woods?……………………………………………………..
Deirdre Nelson
July 24, 2012 at 6:28 pm (UTC 0) Link to this comment
A friend from Durham said that when Prescott was seeking to push his assemblies in England there was absolutely no appetite for it among the public. People saw themselves as English and British.
Since the Conservatives came back to power there is now a growing clamour in the North East for such an Assembly as there is a feeling that the government has absolutely no idea about life outside the M25. His example to me was over the value of houses for stamp duty purposes and was that there are very few houses with the kind of price tag outside London that would require such a change in law.
As for being taken in by establishment types. I’m hiberno-British by birth and inclination, neither is mutually exclusive. It is the rampant jingoism of some English that makes me hesitant to describe myself as British rather than Irish.
Sarah
July 25, 2012 at 7:16 am (UTC 0) Link to this comment
“I’m hiberno-British by birth and inclination, neither is mutually exclusive. It is the rampant jingoism of some English that makes me hesitant to describe myself as British rather than Irish.”
So its alright for you to Irish but if you’re English you’re rampantly jingoistic. It’s the it’s okay to be proud to be Irish, Scottish, Welsh but if you’re English you’re a jingoist, racist etc of people like you that’s made an increasing number of English people fed up of the Britishness you’re apparently so fond of you hesitate to associate with it.
And the only enthusiasm I’ve noticed for a Northern assembly here in Yorkshire is manufactured by Labour party members trying to create themselves a rotten borough the way they tried in Scotland and Wales.
Tom Hall
July 24, 2012 at 6:35 pm (UTC 0) Link to this comment
One thing about the USA (and Canada, Australia, Germany) is that each is a nation consisting of multiple states/provinces/territories, while the ‘United’ Kingdom is a state consisting of multiple nations. The individual nations of these islands existed long before anybody thought to unite them. Although they ceased to be sovereign states upon acts of union passed by various parliaments, they didn’t cease to be nations at the mere stroke of a monarch’s or minister’s pen. The ‘Union’ was purely a political and legal creation, and the devolution process is gradually showing that, as such, it is entirely a sham.
I hope you’re not expecting us to believe that your Scottish and Welsh colleagues in Paris all those years ago described themselves as British, because I’m not buying it, and I doubt many others are, either. All the Scots and Welsh I’ve ever known have described themselves as Scots or Welsh. The only time they call themselves British is for government forms, and they do so very reluctantly.
Union2012
July 24, 2012 at 6:47 pm (UTC 0) Link to this comment
Has devolution affected patriotism? It has certainly loosened the connection between Belfast, Edinburgh and Cardiff. It has put questions into people’s minds with regards as to what is British identity. But I am not sure it has weakened the Union- any separation poll in NI and wales would certainly prove that- the strength of the fightback against Salmond in Scotland will prove that, i am sure. Leaves England which is developing (it seems) a stronger national identity under the British umbrella. The proof that their is no appetite to break up the UK within its biggest part is not to be found on the rarefied world of the internet but in the fact that no English equivalent to the SNP or salmond has emerged.
IndependentEngland
July 24, 2012 at 8:10 pm (UTC 0) Link to this comment
Plenty of English voters would be happy with England leaving the UK. This opinion poll shows many English voters would be happy for Scotland to go
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/9015374/Britain-divided-over-Scottish-independence.html
IndependentEngland
July 24, 2012 at 8:02 pm (UTC 0) Link to this comment
‘Even the English are seeking a more regional identity now as government has become so London-centric’.
Really? Any evidence for that statement? Opinion polls shows that we English want our own English Parliament and yet do we get a referendum? A greater proportion of English voters want Scottish independence than do Scottish voters!
oneill
July 24, 2012 at 8:17 pm (UTC 0) Link to this comment
“Plenty of English voters would be happy with England leaving the UK”
There has been a poll confirming *that*?
IndependentEngland
July 25, 2012 at 11:45 am (UTC 0) Link to this comment
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1535193/Britain-wants-UK-break-up-poll-shows.html
oneill
July 25, 2012 at 12:00 pm (UTC 0) Link to this comment
Ok, thanks. Although I note it is from 5 years ago and also that according to their data 52 per cent of Scots backed separation! Which is a bit different from the most recently reported figures.
IndependentEngland
July 25, 2012 at 1:32 pm (UTC 0) Link to this comment
I agree. Trouble is the British government don’t want to recognise that we English might want a say and try and ignore us.
The figures are different to recent polls for Scotland. The only real way to find out for sure is to have a referendum which Scotland is doing in 2014. I wish we English could have one on English independence at the same time!.
adcharles
July 25, 2012 at 2:36 pm (UTC 0) Link to this comment
Interesting, insightful and provocative piece, Deirdre.
Britishness was initially created as a means of uniting the four parts of the United Kingdom. The English view themselves, first and foremost as English, not necessarily British.
Your discussion of America and identity is interesting. 9/11 made people more ‘American’; patriotism and so forth. Attacks and/or war changes people’s national view.
The other parts of the United Kingdom are now fading in their national identity, largely due to devolution. The Ulster identity became strong in Ulster, or Northern Ireland, which ever you prefer, perhaps from 1912 and on, and was cemented in 1920 under the Government of Ireland Act.
Britishness grew strong amongst Unionists in Northern Ireland from 1972 and on, now I imagine its fading. Being ‘Northern Irish’, is more neutral and reaches across the political divide. This will become the case more and more over the next decade. Identities are now largely local, not national, although Europe seeks to create a new ‘national identity’. Nevertheless they have failed and have no hope of succeeding given the state of the EU.
John in Manila
August 2, 2012 at 7:04 am (UTC 0) Link to this comment
Britain is much much more than a political construct, and I am proud of being British. To me it means much more than merely English, merely Scottish, merely N.Irish, merely Welsh. As I perceive a threat to my Britishness, I have got much more strong minded and aggressive about it – rather like those communities whose Britishness is under threat – N.Ireland, Gibraltar, the Falklands.
View the British Islands from 8,000 miles away, as I now do, and you’ll see that Britain is an island of course, and its people are much more similar and homogenous than they are different… and especially when they are compared to other nationalities. The idea of three nations on one small island is a joke. It only
resembles a bit of respectability because of the false ethnic nationalism drumbeat of the past 30 years